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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:28 am 
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Location: Baltimore, MD
I have noticed a LOT of bad sales going on lately, especially with well established traders/members on this board. I was hoping we could come up with some sort of recommended guidelines to follow which people could refer to when making transactions. Here are just some ideas I think would be helpful in limiting the number of scams occurring. At the end of the day though, nothing short of using escrow services will prevent ALL scams from occurring, so it's important you try and protect yourself as best as possible, even with established traders.

Feel free to throw in your ideas on how to make this a safer board.

I will tidy things up when I have more time.


SELLER'S GUIDELINES:


1. If you put something up for sale on this board, it should be ready to ship in the next 1-2 days. DO NOT PUT AN ITEM UP FOR SALE THAT YOU CANNOT SHIP WITHIN 2 BUSINESS DAYS.

2. Post pics of your item, ESPECIALLY if it's a high priced, rare, or one of a kind item. If you can, put an identifying marker in the pic with your item (ex. a piece of paper with your username on it, etc.)

3. Always ask for a real name, home address, and phone number from the buyer, especially when trading with somebody who is unknown or has no feedback. Give them a call to verify.

4. Ask for buyer's feedback if it's not already linked/shown in their signature. If they have little to no feedback, proceed with caution.

5. If you are new to selling or new to the board or don't have any evals, don't be offended if the buyer asks you to ship first. Otherwise, payment is typically sent prior to shipping.

6a. Try to take payment via Paypal whenever possible. If you HAVE to accept personal check, make sure the check clears properly prior to shipping.

6b. Do not accept payment from a Paypal account that is not under the buyer's name. Example

7. If the buyer sends payment via paypal, only ship to CONFIRMED addresses.

8. ALWAYS ship with tracking #'s. If shipping expensive items, make sure it's insured. Know your shipper's (FedEx, UPS, USPS) terms of service. If the buyer claims they did not receive your item and you have no proof of delivery, you are responsible for refunding the buyer's payment in full. As soon as you have your tracking number in hand, send the number to the buyer so they can track the package.

9. If someone has commissioned a custom piece from you, ask for half of the payment up front and half upon completion of the item.

10. Keep communicating with your buyer! Let them know IMMEDIATELY if something needs to be addressed.


BUYER'S GUIDELINES:

1. If the seller hasn't done so already, ask for pics of the item being sold for verification.

2. Always ask for a real name, home address, and phone number from the seller, especially when buying with somebody who is unknown or has no feedback. Give them a call to verify.

3. Ask for seller's feedback if it's not already linked/shown in their signature. If they have little to no feedback, proceed with caution.

4. If the seller has little to no evals or is relatively new, don't be afraid to ask for them to ship first. If the seller agrees to ship first, don't send payment until the item is in your hands or at the very least, the other person has provided a working shipping confirmation number.

5a. Pay via Paypal whenever possible. Paypal can sometimes (although infrequently) return your money if something goes wrong. Better yet, pay via credit-card Paypal although many people are not capable of accepting this form of payment.

5b. If the seller gives you a paypal account that's clearly not their own (i.e. their mom's , their significant other's etc.) and gives you a story as to why their own account is currently frozen by paypal, DO NOT BUY FROM THEM UNTIL PAYPAL'S INVESTIGATION IS COMPLETE. At the very least, ask them to ship first. Otherwise, you are just begging for trouble. Example

6. If you are commissioning a piece from an artist, offer to pay half up front and half upon receipt of your commissioned piece.

7. Keep communicating with the seller! Let them know IMMEDIATELY if something needs to be addressed.


CROSS-TRADES


1. All the rules above still apply. The person with less feedback should ship first and provide a working tracking number to the other person as soon as item(s) are shipped. The second person should ship IMMEDIATELY after the tracking number is verified to work and provide the first person a tracking number of their own.


FEEDBACK


POST COUNT MEANS NOTHING. Someone with 2000 posts isn't a better trader than someone with 10. Feedback is a much better gauge of trader history. There are two sources of feedback on these boards: The Good Trader Testimony thread seen at the top of this page, and heatware which has been in effect for a few months now. Both are valuable sources of feedback. If you would like to build up your reputation on this board, you can do so either by having others post good experiences trading with you on the GTT thread or better yet, sign up for a heatware account and post the link to your account in your sig (see mine for example).

***POST FEEDBACK FOR ALL YOUR TRANSACTIONS***, especially if requested to do so by the other trader. If you were treated well, a good eval is part of the deal, and the trader has earned it. If you were not treated well, other traders need to know what went wrong. Heatware only works if you use it, and the protection of the evaluation system is only as good the information you contribute. Failure to leave an honest evaluation is a disservice to other traders.

New traders who trade well need your positive evaluation to establish their trading credentials.

Other good traders may need your warning to avoid getting burned by a bad trader or going through the same hassles you encountered.

Heatware has added a new feature that allows you to list usernames you may use on various forums in your heat account. This will help if you have a username on other forums which is different from your heat username and/or your other forum names and establish that your use of the account is legit. It may also help prevent identity theft by someone who falsely claimes your evals as their own.Before you pass on leaving an honest eval, please remember how much YOU would want credit for your good trades and warnings about known bad traders.

Why do many not give an honest eval?
a. You are afraid of retaliation (false negative eval, etc.).

This may be an annoyance, but it should not be a long term problem. Bogus negative evals clearly made of pure spite will be removed. You can contact Heatware moderators for assistance (see below). Any trader who leaves an obviously undeserved, bogus eval risks being permanently banned.

b. You don't want hard feelings.

So? What are they going to do other than talk dirty to you?

c. You may think (or be convinced) this is a onetime thing and wish to give them another chance.

Ok, but the problem is, many people may have the same hesitation. How many others who may have dealt with that same individual have thought the same thing and gone through the same wringer because of such actions by the same bad trader?

***If you've received an unfair heatware eval (say from a trade that never took place), contact the heatware mods here and let them know of the situation. It takes them a bit of time to correct things, but if you're persistant enough, they will fix things.***

The vast majority of our traders are good, honest people. Please be fair to them, and leave an honest eval.


BAD TRADE?

If you do not receive the goods right away or do not receive a tracking number, email/call the other trader, and request action.

If said trader does not respond in two working days, email again. Be patient.

Please do not jump to conclusions until a reasonable amount of time has passed. Two weeks with no response is a sure bet that something is wrong. (exceptions: overseas transactions, commissioned pieces, etc.) No standard transaction should take more than 2 weeks to be completed. If seller has not shipped after 2 weeks, request a return payment from paypal immediately. Don't wait for the 30-day period to expire! You can always resend payment later if you still want to do business.

Do not make decisions while you are upset. Only post or email after you have calmed down. This is most important. Making decisions while enraged will not help your cause; it can only hurt it.

Do not post derogatory remarks about said trader. Instead, post your situation in a calm and friendly manner. Flaming will only raise tempers, hurting your chance of getting your goods or money back.

Ask if anyone else has had trouble with said trader. It is always good to know as much as possible when trading with someone, especially if you think you got ripped by that person.

If said trader does not rectify situation, and action is requred, post a negative heatware/Good Trader Testimony eval for said trader.

Please use common sense when trading.

Last but not least............

Be nice and courteous, Nobody likes to be spoken to in a RUDE manner.





IF ALL ELSE FAILS: :(


Internet Fraud Complaint Center (IFFC)

USPS Mail Fraud Complaint

State Attorney's Office

Local Police

_________________
DO YOU KNOW HOW TO BUY/SELL/TRADE SAFELY?

My Heat


Last edited by McPhreak on Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:27 pm, edited 16 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:37 am 
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nice this is good info!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:46 am 
I'm new here, but I trade alot of concert posters. It is hard to establish good trader/buyer/seller rating but these guidelines will help. Thanks.

-churro


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:58 am 
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The two main things I have learned about conducting transactions via PayPal...

1) Selling (receiving money through PayPal) - ONLY ship to confirmed addresses and ALWAYS purchase delivery confirmation. If the item is expensive, insurance is also required (see PayPal Seller Protection policy for details).

2) Buying (sending money through PayPal) - ALWAYS use your credit card to pay for items. The credit card companies offer better protection than PayPal.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:20 pm 
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When trading, both traders could paypal each other a set amount and therefore they will gain an official address to send to.
When sending off an item, it is best that it is trackable or at least signed for on the recipients side.

Don't know if that helps. I'm pretty quiet on the KR boards but all my buy/sell/trades have been excellent. It's a pity that the two or three scammers we get spoil such a nice little niche we have to further our hobby!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:31 pm 
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preach on pastor


preach on!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:36 pm 
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STICKY!!!!!!!!!!!!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:43 pm 
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adding to this list, never send money, cashier's checks, or personal checks to sellers. all transactions need to have some form of a record and an established way in which you can attempt to get your money back if you get scammed. to the best of my knowledge, paypal seems to be the best way to make purchases and receive payments

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:52 pm 
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Good suggestions folks. Keep them coming. I will update this thread ASAP and try and clean it up for easier reading.

[ Added: Thu 15 Mar, 2007 9:37 pm ]
cleaned up a little bit...

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:22 pm 
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bump

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:28 pm 
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rain wrote:
STICKY!!!!!!!!!!!!


+1

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:15 am 
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bump


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:16 am 
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sticky this.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:36 am 
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BUMP until the mods make this a sticky.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:38 am 
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bump these tips

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:50 am 
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sweeet...


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:33 pm 
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I think that you offer some very good advice. I think that the most important thing that you said was...
"Do not make decisions while you are upset. Only post or email after you have calmed down. This is most important. Making decisions while enraged will not help your cause; it can only hurt it.
Do not post derogatory remarks about said trader. Instead, post your situation in a calm and friendly manner. Flaming will only raise tempers, hurting your chance of getting your goods or money back"

There are however, certain things that I have slight issues with. Feedback is definitely one of them. I consider myself a very fair and trustworthy seller and buyer...but I don't track my own feedback. I'm sure there are good things said about me out there...but I don't make an effort to track it down. I consider that stuff "seller's masterbation" when you need to stroke your own ego by keeping a record of the good things people have said about you. I know it comes down to a trust factor...which is why I do most all of my selling on this board. If someone makes a big to-do about checking my feedback before they will buy from me, I will generally just not sell to them.

My other issue is with shipping. I remember when people understood the costs of shipping and using paypal. It costs a certain amount of money for insurance, tracking numbers, and paypal costs (especially if you have your paypal set up to receive credit card payments). I generally try to price all of my items at close to retail (or at least what I paid for them). When you are already doing that and then are constantly being bombarded with buyers that want the items shipped for the listed price, you can often wind up losing money. Giving buyers the option to report that an item never arrived because they can see that you did not pay the extra money for tracking seems to just be offering more opportunities for shady business.

Sorry if this came off sounding bitter, but it is just my two cents.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:42 pm 
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let me stroke your ego J... you are a great trader

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:45 pm 
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just buy or trade with me. You always get your items, just ask around....

oh, here ya go :)

http://forums.kidrobot.com/viewtopic.php?t=59091

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GOOD TRADER TESTIMONY on pages 5,10,12,13,41,46,49,55,57,67,84,85,87,91,102, 138, 139, 142, 143, 145. 161. 162. 163. 164. 170. 171. 177. 178. 181. 183. 184. 185. 194. 195. 196


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:47 pm 
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nightwing002 wrote:
let me stroke your ego J... you are a great trader


Thanx Shane. I hadn't been stroked properly yet today. Maybe that's why I'm bitter :D


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:49 pm 
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Lil J NYC wrote:
nightwing002 wrote:
let me stroke your ego J... you are a great trader


Thanx Shane. I hadn't been stroked properly yet today. Maybe that's why I'm bitter :D


I am purring like a kitty ;)

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GOOD TRADER TESTIMONY on pages 5,10,12,13,41,46,49,55,57,67,84,85,87,91,102, 138, 139, 142, 143, 145. 161. 162. 163. 164. 170. 171. 177. 178. 181. 183. 184. 185. 194. 195. 196


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:50 pm 
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Good work. I didn't go through with a transaction b/c the other person did not fulfill some of the items on your list.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:59 pm 
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Lil J NYC wrote:
I think that you offer some very good advice. I think that the most important thing that you said was...
"Do not make decisions while you are upset. Only post or email after you have calmed down. This is most important. Making decisions while enraged will not help your cause; it can only hurt it.
Do not post derogatory remarks about said trader. Instead, post your situation in a calm and friendly manner. Flaming will only raise tempers, hurting your chance of getting your goods or money back"

There are however, certain things that I have slight issues with. Feedback is definitely one of them. I consider myself a very fair and trustworthy seller and buyer...but I don't track my own feedback. I'm sure there are good things said about me out there...but I don't make an effort to track it down. I consider that stuff "seller's masterbation" when you need to stroke your own ego by keeping a record of the good things people have said about you. I know it comes down to a trust factor...which is why I do most all of my selling on this board. If someone makes a big to-do about checking my feedback before they will buy from me, I will generally just not sell to them.

My other issue is with shipping. I remember when people understood the costs of shipping and using paypal. It costs a certain amount of money for insurance, tracking numbers, and paypal costs (especially if you have your paypal set up to receive credit card payments). I generally try to price all of my items at close to retail (or at least what I paid for them). When you are already doing that and then are constantly being bombarded with buyers that want the items shipped for the listed price, you can often wind up losing money. Giving buyers the option to report that an item never arrived because they can see that you did not pay the extra money for tracking seems to just be offering more opportunities for shady business.

Sorry if this came off sounding bitter, but it is just my two cents.


Thes are just guidelines, not the 10 commandments. It's up to you if you want to follow them or not. Just don't start whining if you get ripped off and didn't follow the guidelines. ;) If you don't want to keep feedback, it's your call. I'm just saying that people should be extra wary when dealing with people without feedback.

Delivery Confirmation cost like $0.55 from USPS. FedEx and UPS automatically provide tracking numbers. And if you don't have proof that you delivered the item in the first place, how can you not refund the money to the buyer if the if the item doesn't show up?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:03 pm 
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Lil J NYC wrote:
IMy other issue is with shipping. I remember when people understood the costs of shipping and using paypal. It costs a certain amount of money for insurance, tracking numbers, and paypal costs (especially if you have your paypal set up to receive credit card payments). I generally try to price all of my items at close to retail (or at least what I paid for them). When you are already doing that and then are constantly being bombarded with buyers that want the items shipped for the listed price, you can often wind up losing money. Giving buyers the option to report that an item never arrived because they can see that you did not pay the extra money for tracking seems to just be offering more opportunities for shady business.



all true (and I agree mostly with your stance on feedback).

As far as the cost of shipping goes - I only use insurance and/or signature confirmation on expensive items, and i try to include paypal fees in the price (and I agree that many buyers seem to not want to take that into account), but I ALWAYS ALWAYS get delivery confirmation (even on a 4$ common dunny). Maybe that's paranoid, but it is only 35 cents, and safes me from potential accusations later (so far I have had no real problems, but there was a dunny that got stuck in NJ for almost 2 weeks before going to CA - being able to show tracking was helpful)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:19 pm 
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Oh I agree McPhreak and I know that these rules are no way set in stone. It's just that it will mainly be new buyers or sellers reading this post...and they are the ones who are most likely to take the guidelines to heart. It's the new posters who generally bust ballz about the feedback issue because they haven't been around long e-nuff to know who some of us are.

Believe me tho...I'm not trying to negate your efforts here. I think that what you are doing is meaningful and important (and I hate to say it, but somewhat necessary as of late). I am just concerned about more headaches of people coming with more and more new demands.


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